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Test oceans video

February 25, 2021 9:28 PM

Test oceans video


shortcode http://grn.lib.dm/a01dvz

oceans-subtitles version 002
for steve bolter to edit

Green Liberal Democrats 2020 Conference
Julie Anderson of Plastic Oceans International
introduced by Keith Melton


oceans-subtitles version 002

for steve bolter to edit


Green Liberal Democrats 2020 Conference

Julie Anderson of Plastic Oceans International 

introduced by Keith Melton


Julie welcome - I am going to ask you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the

organization that you are representing here today.

Thank you for being with us on this on this occasion.

Julie Well - I guess I will start off.

I am Julie Anderson, and I am with Plastic Oceans International. - We are an organisation, an international organisation with a mission to end plastic pollution.

Andreally, the broad approach that we take is -. We are focused on ending plastic pollution by a circular approach to production; and trying to get laws mandated to regulate production of plastic; and also, by changing the consumption habits of individuals through the support of government initiatives, as well as local communities and -.

What you will know when we've seen this "Eating up Easter". This is a this is a unique project that we worked with on Easter Island. Early last year we started working closely with Easter Island, and -. We work with many local communities like Easter Island, because I think, first we - we believe that we're one global community, made up of many -, many local communities, and it's important to work on the local level to get the policy changes that we want to see from the international level. And, by working with local communities like Easter Island, we think it represents what - what is going on in communities around the world, and we see it as an opportunity to learn from their experience and help others facing similar challenges - and so it's a unique balance that we work with specifically with local communities, but we -, - we represent the collective, the collective of them, - - as we work with state level and country-level initiative projects.

The thing about plastic pollution that's interesting, is --well you can see from the film, is - that the problem lies really in our very complex cultural and economic systems of production and consumption, - as well as our increasingly distant relationship with nature, I would say.

Something that we'reseeing, which I think that has been highlighted during these times of Covid, is that -you know - as it really highlights during our distancing, what is happening in nature, and it's really magnified that I believe.

Part of our work with, - locally working with local communities, is that we recognise that each community faces unique challenges to them, because of their own political cultural and economic structure, so it's not as easy as saying there's a one - one size fits all solution for each community. So, it is critical to work with local communities to get their support, So, we can see these large-scale initiatives, government initiatives, changes that will garner larger global impact. But we see that they just simply can't change and make the initiative switches overnight without local support.

So, you know, a part of Plastic Oceans -- like just to give you more of a background and for you: about five years ago when our non-profit first released - - actually four years ago -.

Sorry! When our non-profit released the documentary film "a Plastic Ocean" -. - We had no idea that, we would be able to reach -, over 10 million people would end up seeing the film; and become aware of the global problem of plastic pollution. Since then, because of the impact of our distribution strategies, as well as how we've integrated them into our educational programs - focused on governmentscorporations and schools at local levels, we've reached millions of people around the world, that are now fighting the devastating impacts of plastic pollution in our environments, its creatures as well as our human health, and-

It's been amazing to see the response in activism, that has really created government changes; but they've been small single-use bans around the world; but you know but really what's been amazing is to see how many individuals have really gotten involved big in big ways and small ways. You know really changing product design, to how the local levels are doing collection - waste collection, as well as behavioural changes.

We are seeing more and more people using reusable bottles and reusable bags. - Unfortunately, we're seeing - - bit of-, it feels like a bit of a step back, as, with current Covid 19 times where there have been - a replacement, the reusables have been, sort of put on-hold, and there's been a push for more single-use products, and although we didn't as soon as when Covid started -. We didn't want to push the anti-single-use plastics, with the masks and the gloves, as we didn't know where it was going. But we're seeing now just last week, -.

Just last week we had hundreds ofscientists - have now signed saying there is no proof that single-use bottles are spreading the disease. It's -so now we're really, now really pushing to say that, you know, reusable bags in the grocerystores, reusable bottles, coffee mugs - should be still followed, and allowed in these stores, as things start to reopen.

One of the things -. What one thing that we do put, we a lot of times, we end up seeing what plastic pollution people want to put the - the blame on the consumer, and I think it's an oversimplification to say the consumer's demands for convenience, is the result of our excessive consumption of single-use plastics - and being single-use plastics, being defined as items that, really only, we use once on an average of 10 minutes. We do see in part of plastics, we also see that economic growth, we really promote that economic growth, and a healthy world, are not incompatible, but nor are they mutually exclusive. We really think that there is a way to balance both with a pro a circular economy approach. A new we think that within economic calculations into business, we really push for an environmental impact variable to be included into any business notion.

And I think probably to this audience, it's probably obvious to those that are in this meeting, but you know it is one that we're constantly um trying to educate people on, because it is a novel idea, it's really since the industrial revolution - and you'd be surprised how many people still don't consider the environmental impact as part of their budget.

One thing that we love, that we - we push for, is that, in short, we believe that short-term increases in manufacturing cost production, should be offset by governmental government economic incentives. - We really think that this would make governments - from the top down - more of - heroic leaders. And accelerating these types of sustainable changing, sustainable changes, or building a sustainable ecosystem. And you know by sustainable, I think we use that word so loosely, and I think a sustainable world - as I define is, we define it is, a world where humans operate to not only minimize human impact, but we actually create conditions to improve life. And I that's where I think we're switching from a sustainable 'OK as long as we reduce a little bit of our waste' - well it's more than that - 'can we reduce our waste and make it - , and still leave the world better and healthier'. And so, it's not just a as a simple reduction that we're looking for. - Aan example, I always give, in nature there are examples of complex systems that are that are seemingly incompatible, that have seemingly incompatible interconnections that actually are all critical for the creation of the end-product.

I use the example of an apple. It'snot only the tree that produces the apple, there's water, sunlight, soil, worms, bugs, fungi and other plants that all contribute to creating the right conditions for that apple. If that apple were to not be consumed it would fall to the ground and return to the soil to become another apple tree that could contribute to production of yet more apples, so it's constantly giving back to a system to provide at the highest level.

And this is, you know after watching 'Eating up Easter'. It's seeing, it's seeing that all the parts that contribute to the final product are all equal in some way. And some of the ways, you know, we think that it, you know, really to achieve the same or similar virtuous cycles of sustainability of production and consumption as nature, we need to shift our thinking to be more in line with the concept of circularity that encompasses the integration of all aspects of a product's life cycle, - you know from the material extraction from, - from the earth, to - from production, shipping, delivery. collection, recycling, - and right down to waste management. And how do we renew that without constantly depleting natural resources of virgin material?

We think that we work on three approaches. In terms of solutions in producing and consuming. - In order to end plastic pollution - the first one is we push for short-term solutions that slow the harmful impacts of today's modes of production distribution and consumption. So! These short-term solutions are basically bag fees, bands on straws, band on single-use plastics. These types of bands areuseful, and they are interim solutions that help with the deleterious human impact. However, we are still contributing to the harmful by-products and the material waste, so we're not actually producing more. Nevertheless, it's important to minimize that to use these short-term approaches until we can really implement new long-term approaches.

So! In terms of the other two approaches, the second one is we advocate for a top-down approach to incentivize circularity among producers and consumers. These top-down approaches are that - we work with our country plastic packs. We currently work with very closely with the Chile plastic pack and one in Portugal. We also work with state levels. I work with the Plastic Pack for Circular Economy heremore.

 In California, and it's really getting the legislation working with the different players to agree on definitions of terms:-- What is recycling? What is considered harmful to the environment? and really negotiating those terms. But what we see so so often is, it is really we hit a wall with this top-down approach, even though if they created initiatives that were implemented we would get a greater impact, but they hit a wall because you need the local communities to support and understand the initiatives that are being put in place.

So, where we've really put our focus on is supporting bottom-up approaches that engage and motivate local communities to influence policies and habits needed for these large-scale impacts. And so, I'll just focus on that just a little bit more. As I said the bottom-up approaches that -, like organisations like plastic oceans, where we actively engage in local communities that includetheir citizens local governments and small to mid-sized businesses, and where we see that currently we're often overlooked in current circular economy conversations and programs.

We see that many small to mid-sized businesses are less connected to the most environmentally beneficial ways to produce and manufacture and source their actual products. So, by that I mean a lot of this circular economy, when it's geared and targeted towards large multinational corporations like Coca-Cola, Unilever, Procter & Gamble, or country levels, it sees products as being, you know, they it talks about oil production and oil waste and large-scale distribution, but when you see small businesses, like your local convenience store, or your local grocery store, they're buying those products from multinationals.

They almost are a consumer in some ways because they're sourcing their products from somewhere bigger, so they feel very disconnected from the original sourcing of material or extraction of natural resources. So, it's really putting it into-. We work with them to put the larger circular economy definitions into context for them locally and so what we also do at Plastic Oceans-. - We really focus on that educating and facilitating these collaborations and communications between local producers and consumers that influence their local legislation, which in turn does affect large scale for impacting changes, and where we see these changes at a much rapid pace is that it's because local communities are able to mobilize influence and implement circular economy practices very quickly, whereas the other way around, on a country level, it's much more difficult and, therefore, this is why we end up seeing we work closely with local communities to -, because we see them as playing a critical role in changing our global perspective.

Ultimately, I think it's because we see them as more interconnected with each other as well as with nature on that when we deal with them on that level and try to see it so, I guess I've had a conclusion statement here. I guess and then- really what I like to say is, that what I always want people to see is that circularity or the term circularity, which is more of a philosophy it seems, but it's a way that where we need to see a more collaborative and integrated approach to the path of sustainability that includes the health of the people in nature, but, as well as technology and profit, I think it's all very much integrated in this concept of circularity .


That's great thank you very much indeed. I've noticed one or two questions are coming on. I'm going to save the questions until we've heard from both yourself and Chris Davis - and we'll bring Chris on in just a second, but it did just occur to me to ask - oh we've we've heard - on a number of occasions over the last few days - that there is an issue of, I think it was called in one session, "extended producer responsibility", in other words the need to bring in the externalised costs.

Do you feel as though you're making any progress with the Coca-Colas and Unilevers of the world? Is -are you, are they listening to you I?


I probably, in all honesty, I feel like they're, they're providing answers thatappear that they are pushing in that direction. I think they always can be doing more. I think with what, for me and my perspective of what the coronavirus has changed my perspective, is that we can change quickly. We can do things faster. Things can turn around. We don't. I, and this might be just my personal opinion, is that I think to have 30 years: - oh we need a 2050 goal: we need 20 at 30 years. We don't need 30 years to make good changes today and, yes they are making 20 30 goals, and they're list... -you know listening and trying, but is it just stall.It feels like stalling.

And that's why it is a matter of really educating people to disempower some of it, disempower them a bit in the sense of that if - if the consumer starts buying elsewhere demandingdifferent products they will change faster. And that's where it it's where we see our approach being more effective on the bottom up okay. So we, we the people, need to use our power because, if we had, if we had all of our power all together, we are actually significant in holding that power against the multinationals.


  1. Chris Davis has arrived.

Page Break

welcome chris uh thank you for being there thank you for uh talking with us uh you're broadening the discussion a little bit from dealing simply with plastic in the oceans and looking at how we how we govern our oceans how we govern our water our hydrosphere and i'm going to just mention the fact that you're one of our former

meps and I i wrote on my article today it grieves me every time I have to use the word former meps it's a blow to us that you and your colleagues are still not there in the european union

trying to make them the european union more liberal and more democratic anyway i'm going to hand straight over to you chris to introduce yourself and your topic and we're going to sit back and listen to

you chris chris davis thanks very much keith i'm assuming you can hear me um please indicate very good um so I was the party's environment spokesman in the european parliament from 99 to 2014 mainly dealing with climate issues but the whole gambit of matters we would call green um and also uh campaigning on fisheries issues because we were going to the run-up to the

reform of the common fisheries policy which took place in 2013 and I wanted that to be ambitious um I then returned to the parliament briefly um from last summer from this time last year to the beginning of this year and I was uh chairman of the fisheries committee um certainly the only chair of the fisheries committee in the european parliament who has in his time ever dr dressed up as a fish and walked around the parliament to make a point about sustainability um anyway so that left me I think is probably the last british mep to have chaired a law-making committee in brussels lasts for the moment anyway so yeah I want to take a look at the big picture but I wanted to start first of all just to spread some good news I mentioned the common fisheries policy in in europe it's had dreadful press over the years um most british politicians still seem to think it's a terrible policy it's not uh in fact british meps and the british government at the time helped bring about some significant reforms it's now a policy which is helping to restore fish stocks uh put more fish in the sea biomass in the seas around uh northern europe around the coast of britain and the whole of the northern continental europe are recovering um fish stocks are the best best state they've been they're way down on where they were 30 40 years ago they are in their best state for probably 15 20 years and until kobe struck the fishing industry across europe was making record profits britain was certainly the the most profitable fishing industry of all um spain I think second I mean we're making talk about 14 15 16 return on investment here so really profitable industry

um doing well because fish stocks were recovering um that doesn't apply to the mediterranean in a black sea I should say which is still being grossly overfished um but there are measures there so anyway I

just want to say that you know things were very very bad there's a lot of work to be done but uh what's happened over the last 10 years and the commitment shown by the commission and to a degree by government

minister shows that you know we can turn the situation around there's so many environmental problems which just look beyond our ability to to uh to tackle it it's good that there are some things that you show with determination with policy action with proper measures and then enforcement you can bring about positive change so just three big pictures of the three three uh issues on the on the uh on the global picture so we're talking about the world's oceans here that's seven tenths of the earth surface um and

currently the united nations food and agriculture organization says that 90 of our waters our oceans are being fished at maximum level and 34 percent and that's growing to 34 are being finished unsustainably overfished so the stocks are declining I think I should also say that uh when we're talking about these measures we tend to be talking about commercial

stocks so the situation can be very much worse for stocks which are caught us by catch that can include dolphins of course and it can chewed in involves sharks and many other species which are not the primary target of the fishery so 34 being overfished at the moment obviously you know if the fishing industry is that the future if we're to secure the biodiversity of

the seas we've got to bring about change the difficulty is how to secure change um there's the 200 mile limit introduced under the law of the sea in the 1980s and that means that you know up to 200 miles off the coast of any particular country that governments the government of that country can control the finishing activities in that area but fifty percent of

the cities now fifty percent of the world's surface is out is beyond in the high seas beyond that two hundred mile limit 50 percent of the oceans of the of the of the earth's surface and there control is very difficult most of the oceans are covered by regional fisheries management organizations partnerships of governments um that meet uh they have ngo representatives there and fishing industry representatives there to give their points of view but basically like government organizations usually concentrating on certain species like the profitable species like tuna not concerned so much about about others um progress is made I mean things would be very much worse if those organizations

did not meet did not accept targets agreement is made by consensus and we all know that if that's the case then one country can block change and if it doesn't block change then they can opt out of whatever is agreed so there's no there's no police force here there's no there's no there's no necessary there's no effective enforcement if you have a country that

really doesn't want to to bring about change so there needs to be there needs to be recognition by other part of governments that you know we're in this together we have to look after our seas we have to ensure that sustainability get this to be a successful future uh for biodiversity and for uh the fishing industry and the people it serves

i'll come back on to of course some of the issues that raise this the next is the next issue I want to raise is the amount of illegal unregulated and unreported fishing because this

notwithstanding the fact that these height well I suppose taking advantage to some extent of the fact that the high seas are unregulated oh perhaps 25 percent some say even 30 of all the fish that are caught globally are being caught by iu illegal fishermen um sometimes you know boats boats factory boats freezer boats charles shipman boats are out there put literally years on end um fishing practices especially to name asia in particular fishing practices can amount to slavery on board human slavery um and the question is why do we allow this because someone buys that fish um the seafood companies the giant seafood companies the top ten uh alone names you've probably ever heard of as sebec most of them japanese some american some norwegian but um most of those the top 10 big seafood companies have a turnover of more than 35 billion dollars a year they still command only about 13 of all the fish it's caught but obviously they have huge buying power and even even the best of them companies like thai union which is you wouldn't know necessarily the name but it's john west for example and many many other brands john west which has got a genuine commitment now to sustainability into trying to improve traceability of its products um even it would say well you know the fish from illegal fishermen escape and get through the net well in many cases you know there's a blind eye being turned to this so so these illegal activities completely unsustainable completely lawless not bothered about what they're

catching at all you know anything anything they don't want and can't make money out of it just gets turned into fish meal whatever the importance to biodiversity you know very difficult to control these things you need the companies themselves to put traceability first and to apply rules on the fishermen they either employ or the fishermen from whose from whose boats they they uh they buy their fish and the third is I want to just touch on biodiversity generally um i've said that the problem is that one of the problems is that we concentrate so much on commercial fish we forget that the seas are full of other life for which there may not there may be no profits to be made there's not much money to be made out of fish meal for example and yet yet sir you know they add to the richness of our seas and and uh the health of our oceans let alone issues like climate change and you know always always so there's so many issues we could touch upon um I really don't see in the high seas that there is much one can do to control the fishing activities in the near future other than to introduce marine protected areas uh the un's biodiversity goals are that thirty percent of the world sees should be declared uh protected uh in some of those areas there should be no tape zones so there should be no fishing at all in others there should be no trawling or other activities should it should be um should be prevented in order to protect whatever species you are of course trying to protect by declaring the npa

now those uh with prop so long as vessels are carrying vms systems vessel monitoring systems it would be possible to police these areas you know you can from satellites you can you can identify

uh where every ship and the ship ship um ship in the ocean is so it can it is possible to police a protected area because the danger of course is if you don't police them there's the protection is simply paper protection in europe for example we currently have about 11 of our seas declared protected but only four or five percent of those uh areas have any effective

protection and enforcement measures in place and in many in some cases as uh you know ngos will point out you've got like on the dogger bank for example you've got a protected area protected under the habitat storage too for the european union and trawling is being allowed I mean how can you how can you protect the seabed when you're when you're when you're dragging troll nets across it so the goal should be to uh to try and ensure that the world gets together declares these protected areas like you know rounded antarctic and such

like we've we are seeing progress in this respect but we also have to put in place the the enforcement measures and that requires a degree of international collaboration which frankly at the

moment is simply missing um one last point I see everything very much from a european union perspective I mean so much of my political life of the past 20 years has been eu based um I you know i've had a role in the shaping of eu policies in in these matters um I regard the eu internationally as being very much a force for the good but it's by no means solely I mean I i

i'm very conscious that when the eu speaks at the international conferences at the rfmos the regional management organizations it is also speaking on behalf of its fishermen it has a it wants to protect the commercial interests of the of the long distance fleets which operate in the high seas but by and large it is it is progressive and uh you know a force for the good the question of course is is what now with brexit and where will britain sit um I like to think that britain will still be a progressive

force it will no doubt have its own representation on most of these bodies or some those bodies where there are british long-distance fishermen at work but um i'm also conscious that not being part of the union not being part of the team weakens us and you know if the americans want something then you know it's all too easy to get the brits I think on board to support them and uh that just potentially undermines the effectiveness of of of the progressive nations of the world trying to ensure that policies to protect the seas for

the long-term future are put in place final final final point again though it's not all bad I mean I hope some of you saw the report that was well publicized from nature came out in april um professor callum roberts from york was a member of the review committee that looked at it and and that report although it highlighted uh some deplorable instances of overfishing

and the depletion of the of the seas also pointed to a resurgence in whale numbers in places of foreseeable numbers of cormorants um of uh otters of canada I mean all sorts of good news just showing that you know uh with the right measures in place the situation can be turned around and we can have a very positive future but we need to act of course um and we need ultimately politicians to prepare to put more time into the the boring issue of fish than they have in the past okay thank you um well it certainly wasn't a boring issue of fish during the last few minutes chris thank you very much indeed let me just let the audience now if you don't know already and some of you clearly do because there are some questions on the q a panel and we will come to them that you are able to write your questions to both of our speakers or one of our speakers as you wish on the q a panel and for those of you who haven't used that before it's also possible to boost a question that you like uh better than the others by putting a vote on your thumbs up sign on the q a panel to say that should be a question that we will take first so whilst you're all looking at the q a panel and writing your questions down um let me just raise a first question from the chair if I may and that is one of the things that the two of you have indicated that struck me very much where the similarity is is that we as a world are very very heavily populated and therefore there is a lot of personal responsibility that we have

but on the other hand and it comes back to the point we spoke about briefly with julie we do have a lot of power we have a lot of consumer power and it's a question of communicating to those consumers ourselves if you like the things that we we need to have done to make the world better so I guess my question really is to both julie and chris uh julie first do you feel optimistic about these issues and if not what can we do about it I i'm absolutely optimistic I think it's I think people small group individuals and small groups when motivated can do a lot I have was blown away by the impact of recently in the us with the black lives matter and the police

and how it expanded into other countries and here is a group it has it has gone on for a long time but you know it's um I guess it's it is the power of individuals that then increase their voice that can then spread quite rapidly their voices and you end up seeing some type of reaction in a positive way and I think this always stems from the individuals and I think so i'm always optimistic it's I think it's it's about empowerment it's about making individuals not feel smaller than they are because I think we've been trained to believe that oh the government will take care of it they're bigger than I am I have nothing to do with it or coca-cola is too big it's you know they control what I buy no they will change and I i we've seen these in different examples of the example I give from 2014 here in the us that mcdonald there are lots of ham burger places that were developing here in the us shake shack and things that their sales pitch was they don't use frozen meat and they have fresh meat burgers and they were growing in popularity and using fresh vegetables you know up until that point 2014 mcdonald's wasn't shifting their menu but within one year by 2015 they had created a green menu and it's really the power of the demand and having appealing to those to the consumer and that is the power of each person buying one burger each

and so I am extremely optimistic on doing that and you know to address one of the q a questions the panel um it was about you know is there any change in easter island and mass tourism what we've seen in

easter island is that from just a small group of people um empowering them to just continuously fight to have their waste take picked up because what it is is everybody's dropping off water bottles and food and supplies get to easter island but nobody's picking up the waste but within one year they were able to increase the amount of waste being collected by

the chilean navy every year as as well as the the airports the the flights the airlines are now taking back with them and as we continue to push on responsible for collecting the waste as well and where it's a bit of a pushback but it's I i'm confident that it is better getting people to understand what that means what is extended producer responsibility putting those um policies in place and having them voted in properly okay thank you chris you share julie's general sense of optimism or

are you more worried about the situation I suppose because of because of potential brexit failures I think there's opportunities to to make a lot of progress but I want to see progress more rapidly than may otherwise be the case I mean it's back in 1996 that unilever which of the time-owned bird's eye and thindus got together with wwf and set up the marine stewardship council and with the aim of certifying sustainable fishing in order to give a big boost to that and you see the msc labor on well not enough but uh on a substantial number of cans of fish and other products now you know unilever at the time said we're doing this because we are concerned about what we're doing uh in terms of overfishing and we want to be able to supply our customers in a hundred years time so we need to take an initiative and msc has grown I think it's about certifying about 15 percent of the world's fish now and uh 34 of all the tune that's caught is certified that's all that's all good but it's still a small minority position

and but of course that's absolutely dependent upon the consumer and and supermarkets supermarkets stocking brands which are msc certified certified and consumers being prepared to pay a bit more because they're buying fish which comes from sustainable sources I was I share a a series of fortnightly webinars called the blue deal debates on fisheries issues and just last week I had in we were exploring the issue of the of whether the big seafood companies I made reference to could be doing more to promote global sustainability um I was struck by talking with with a lady called darion mcbain australian uh who's the head of sustainability and corporate governance for uh thai union

appointed about five years ago and I asked her when you started you know how this company actually wanted a director on the board of directors of sustainability to encourage its pr encourage change um what environment did you find yourself in and she said to me um first thing I did was to commission consultants to find out what all our rivals our competitors the other big companies were doing so I could immediately make sure that we were at least following best practice and I found this is five years ago there was no best practice most people weren't doing anything and I just find this utterly astonishing I made reference to the size of these companies um I made reference to 1996 which is

what what where was that now 25 years ago I mean i've been talking about sustainability I suspect like many people here since since I was at school I can remember you know writing articles and ecology back in 1970 when I was 16 and the seafood companies these huge suppliers are only just waking up to it within the past five years I mean just that shows just it's good that progress is being made it's just astonishing it's not being made faster so of course there's there's a lot of work to be done here by the way one of the reasons of

course I also had um will mccallum from greenpeace on my on my program uh and and I challenged him but he said what the trouble is because no one's ever heard of these companies it's very difficult to have a campaign against you know companies you've never heard of we all know their brands you see that brands just never heard of the companies themselves actually are the uh the spider behind behind the um behind the web yeah so lots of opportunities well yeah I i share your I mean you can see from my gray hair that I um have been campaigning on environmental issues for a long long time and I share the frustration of knowing that we were talking about this back in the liberal party in 1977 78 certainly and um we don't we haven't all seen that much progress little bits but okay i'm going to go to the questions and there are quite a few um if you uh are in the audience and your question might be asked if you put your blue hand up so for laura clive and roderick if you put your blue hand up I will see that you would like to come on and ask your question so can we bring laura up and ask her question first karen and it does relate to the one of the things we've been talking about in terms of communication and power of the individual power of the of the consumer laura how's your sound is it working today no it is working excellent ask your

question laura well I can't see it anymore my question was whether something could be done at the other end can we not try and educate the tourists and he made me by playing the film that we've just seen on the on the planes as they arrived on the cruise ships or maybe julie would have to you know train up a team of people who could go on board and give a lecture on

on the subject and try and make them understand why you don't want to leave their rubbish behind okay julie let's throw that question to you in in basic terms about the film and easter island particularly but then we can perhaps broaden it out generally to how we get consumers to be more responsible really I think there's three of the three approaches that we take there are definite um we work with tourism boards of the country tourism um offices for education um we do try to get the our films into onto airplanes and boats uh and cruises to in inform on that on the consumer level we are pushing on initiatives government initiatives for the example in easter island in putting a tax a tourism tax that would charge um for accounting for the waste that is brought in um but really it is that the bigger one is the predict the the producer responsibility if these big companies are they're willing to ship crates and crates of coca-cola but then they're not willing to take the container away it's there's somebody's left and I mean it made in there the idea is that everybody holds a bit of responsibility it's not to put all the blame on anyone in particular but it is obviously putting the responsibility on the producer would have the greatest impact the next level to manage mass tourism which there was a question that easter island can't handle mass tourism in order to regulate that tourism taxes are put into place um to control that and then finally it's really to get the consumer aware of the problem and like chris said it's if you don't know about these companies if the consumer doesn't know what the problem is you're just constantly there's a gap of just unawareness that prevents anything getting done yeah sure and chris the the the responsibility of tourists for example but the responsibility of consumers generally can we can we take some of that responsibility and impose it by way of regulation would that does that help well it could do three three points first is um

listen to laura talking and uh I despair frankly because of the um just just uh having watched the amount of rubbish that's been dumped in the last couple of weeks by people coming out of their homes as

though they've never come out of their homes before and just I don't know I can't believe the amount of rubbish has been thrown over the moors and off the roads by some of the hot spots in the peak district where I live anyway um but much more to the point I mean at least one hopes you can educate people in in countries like here I was talking to a a um a senator in

jamaica who's working on this issue a couple of months ago and he's pointing out that you know there's parts in the main in the capitals city where you know there's no access there's no way in which there is going to be proper effective waste collection from the shanty towns and things on the hillside there so the rubbish gets just dumped and it immediately gets swept away in the next rainstorm and it you know you look out into the bay it's got photographs of every piece of plastic waste and the bay you know looks white um

on the on the visuals it's just and this you know a lot a lot of the problem is simply the inadequacy of waste collection and waste disposal methods in uh in in countries across the world but the other final point and this is where we come down to regulation that i'd uh make is um julie will no doubt confirm an enormous amount of the waste we find in our seas comes from the fishing industry now at a small level that's simply stuff thrown over the side of boats on a bigger level it's thing things like ghost nets of which a classic instance was given to me by european commission official this last week you know in the indian ocean where we've got fleets from across the world including europe catching yellowfin tuna and skipjack tuna you've got ghost nets driftnets that have escaped if you like driftnets just floating there for years and years on end in the seas catching fish killing fish not for any purpose they're just there the fish get caught in them and die we're talking here about drift nets which are 30 or 40 kilometers long so just imagine you know where you where you are now in your in your own homes perhaps and 30 to 40 kilometers away from there and a net that big in the water silently killing I mean clearly you need regulation and the obvious regulation is you have inventories of every piece of equipment on board a vessel and you count it and you count it back but that would will require a degree of regulation and enforcement that simply isn't present at the present it doesn't exist now across most of the world okay thank you for the answers thank you laura for the question and the next question is from clive trussell who I think karen will be

in the process of bringing him onto screen anytime soon here we go clive is going to join us and this one is directed mainly towards chris because of the links to europe but it may be also to do with the issue of control by the islanders of easter island so it's mostly european julie but um you might learn something about them oddities of brexit in this answer clive

over to you um well I seem to have asked two questions and I think you've asked the second one ah okay where I asked what chris thought of the taking back control situation with fishing but the first one I asked them both chris that's the most close that was the second one it was very short that was it but the first one is very complicated as plastic is isn't it um it's really growing in my mind these last few weeks I saw a film a few weeks back um ocean or autopsy and it was discovering what he killed this dolphin as well as many other things um but one thing was the pcbs I think they were banned about 40 50 years ago is still killing and it's still seeping out the sediment and out of waste stumps and it's breaking down that fine it's creating a molecular level which is fitting into the hormones of the fish and it's causing them to go sterile and that's what's happening to a lot of the killer whales is because of the size of the particles anyway and then there was the film that we had on was it the plastic story last week yeah that was very good and it's a bit depressing because at the end it was saying that the well it's the oil industry basically

uh and uh you know the hunter that created pop they want to sell the oil now because they're going to be a cut down on oil as people are changing to electric and they're going to create

more and more what should I say plugging plastics more and more they can't see they're not responsible for the end product and and that question which i've put down it says that we should where did it go then the question uh it's gone anyway um that they should pay right from the initial polluter that's from the oil that's not foreign can't find it uh yeah the oil and the chemical industry all the way through right to the end it would put the price up fantastically but it'll be the true cost because because in and they're not having any you know they should be there on the initial cost of the item shouldn't it the what's going to do all the way down the line should be able to get rid of it or something not just let it destroy the planet so i've discovered your question in in the in the answered section so i'm going i'm just going to clarify perhaps the

only true way to stop the disaster is that the government and law stepped in so the question really I guess is how much should the government step in with legal regulation and can we can we do it on an international scale probably julie come to you first um there's so many possibilities to answer this I think that the the complications with the the complexities of waste and money and taking responsibility of waste especially like whether it's with fishing nets and plastic waste that ends up in our international waters and who do you place the blame how do you track all of these the things and you know the com and how products like plastic is so integrated into

all levels of our cultural economic and like just personal habits it's just integrated very deeply in there and that complexity just allows people to pass around the responsibility and blame so much easier and this is where I mean I would say it's difficult for than the government to take over because then you're going to have I think

corporations saying oh no what uk government can't take this but consumers are demanding this product so they constantly are shifting the blame I think ultimately we are pushing for

responsibility governments need to reflect what is best in the best interest for the environment and its people and in the environment because ultimately if it is for its people you cannot have a healthy healthy people without a healthy environment and so the responsibility does have to fall on the government I i don't know you know being here in the u.s and seeing like what a disaster our political system is right now in protecting the environment I don't see that changing anytime soon um and so it is about getting the people to understand you know what they need to do rallying these type of conferences the the power and getting these the voices out there so that we can see change you know up top bottom up rather than waiting for the government to start doing what they what we all think they should be doing but it seems slow I think I think you have the same problem in the united states that we have here that the guy at the top is probably not the guy that we would all want to see making these decisions uh chris do you want to take that story off as well well first touch on brexit I suppose um my um picture's gone blank but I hope you can still hear me can you contribute yes right right well just on brexit just two myths about the british fishing industry the first is you know that it's all about someone pushing a boat up a beach in hastings the fact is that 27 vessels just 27 vessels catch 50 percent of all the tonnage of fish landed in the uk mainly macro and herring huge boats huge boats you know the real beneficiaries of brexit are already millionaires um fishing industry is hugely diverse between the these enormous vessels on the one hand and the and you know the the myriad of smaller scale people and the second thing is the the idea that somehow the foreign vessels weren't allowed in british waters until we joined the european union whereas in practice you know foreign vessels have been in british waters well since the vikings the vikings were dragging nets behind them in fact some would say they they came to to the uk in the first place because cod was disappearing from the baltic um so just just just a few myths but it has to be said that so long as we are outside the european union and the united nations and introduce the law of the sea in the 200 mile limit of course we have a right to to fish in these waters and determine who will fish in these waters um but I would seeing it in its wider perspective you know fishes titanic fishing industries titanic in the uk but it's also totemic in other european countries too uh you know they see they see themselves having been fishing in those waters for for generations for

centuries um the british government has to make the decision does he actually want to put an industry which employs hardly a small fraction of the number of people employed in by the

by the car industry for example before the interests of the car industry and the pharmaceutical industry the uh the uh um the chemicals industry and the aeronautical industry I mean all these things the european union is saying look if you want a good trade deal then we want concessions on fishing you have the right to do what you like when you're 200 miles but if you insist on exerting that right to the full then we're not going to concede on other matters which frankly are going to be economically more important to you

anyway there's the argument and uh you know those negotiations continue very political as they are uh just on the on the final point on on um oh the pollution um so much of course but as julie also will no doubt point out that so much of the of the wastes up in the sea certainly the plastic waste is coming from a relatively limited number of sources I mean it's everywhere but a num was it six seven rivers are responsible for pouring out huge amounts of their continents uh waste so it comes down you know again to a waste issue and how we deal with that waste as for the pollutants agricultural runoff uh creating dead zones in parts of the seas um I mean all yeah I couldn't agree more the polluter has to pay uh in some areas this can be done at a national level or the european level and we just have to have the political will to make it happen in other areas you know it is not going to happen either well it's not going to happen until the government's responsible for their own reasons face up to their

responsibilities but there are costs involved and not surprisingly politicians wish to avoid having to pay those costs okay thank you um several of the questions are in fact very much focused on on europe and the fishing industry but and I will come back to those but there's one question from diana simpson diana would you like to ask your question on screen if so

yes you would so karen if you could bring diana up I will come back to some of the other questions um interesting this is the this is the first session where there hasn't been uh a sort of massive uplist of one particular question over the others they're all sort of fairly equally equally wanted so i'm going to jump about a little bit between them so diana uh are you with us now you seem to be muted as yet there we go hello diana ask your question if you will uh I can't see my question but it was um cannot everything that's taken on bordership it's something like chris was saying um I put my question in actually before chris was speaking about it but to everything on cruise ships such

as that everything that all the food and drink and so on can all the packaging not be monitored and so that it's all got to be stored on the ship and then taken back and uh logged that it's you know that it's been returned when the when the cruisers ended so it's about them to see basically even if it can't be um seen as an item it could be done by weight or something like that possibly okay chris to take that first uh no I if I may i'll pass over to julie because I don't know the rules I mean i'd be surprised if if the rules allowed

cruise ships to dump their waste over the sea but maybe i'm wrong do you have the answer to that julie they're not supposed to I mean where we see a lot but with cruise ships in particular where their waste is that there is a tax on the waste at the port that they are depositing it and where you end up seeing is that countries with lower economies poorer countries or lower economies is that they will have a lower tax rate so then they end up dumping their waste there but they simply don't have the waste management infrastructure to handle the waste the waste and you know what chris points out there are the number of countries there's only a few rivers ten major rivers that are really responsible for all ocean waste ocean plastic pollution and those countries tend to be the ones with the weakest infrastructure and they're the ones that are the first to take you know try to collect a very small amount of tax on waste being dumped by whether it's another country or whether it's a cruise ship um and this is where that

push for in terms of tourists it would be you put the tourist tax on there so if they're bringing any waste they're paying for that increase charge and as well as the products that the producer provided so if we're talking about cruise ships they've already taken on a number of shampoo bottles or water bottles those type of supplies those single use supplies they that tax should have been placed on the producer as well so that the waste management infrastructures can be paid for and covered under the these systems or financially can I can I come in you can of course I just don't follow that julie I mean I mean clearly if if the cruise ships do dump waste in order to avoid port fees and this is exposed by you know a helpful investigative ngo then the company concerned would suffer enormous rep or could suffer enormous reputational damage could it not and you know they're not so they're not I mean and the cruise ship industry of course is reeling at the moment anyway because of of cobit so i'd be surprised if the the industry was not scrupulous in trying to avoid that sort of bad publicity but am I wrong you know and I think in the past they have and they used to dump there was definitely an expose led by greenpeace on illegal dumping of uh wastes by cruise ships like in the middle of the ocean where it wasn't regulated as much and then that definitely curbed them where they feel that they are they're still within legal confines here is that by jumping at a port that for example in the caribbean there's cruise ships that go in the caribbean rather than coming back and paying a higher port fee in the us they will dump most of their waste at in jamaica

or where they are paying for it but they just simp if you've been to a river and they just dump it on the side it only takes one typhoon before it's all at sea and that's where we have to regulate this sort of these loopholes of um getting around that poor waste management i'm getting i'm getting a strong impression here that um it's rather like the coronavirus has shown us that we are part of a global uh community now and we probably need a very much stronger global police force a global set of laws global regulations and that will only come about if the people demand it so this this is in our hands the unfortunate thing is that uh this country is opting out of an international treaty that could have uh helped us uh regulate more effectively and the united states is drawing its homes in and um trying to keep away from the rest of the world anyway uh so it's all it's all sometimes a bit dispiriting diana do you feel dispirited by this this process or do you feel encouraged by the answers that we've had you're muted by the way slightly encouraged but overwhelmed I think slightly encouraged but overwhelmed okay in that case we're going to go to the next question if we may and I am going to now go to the to the top roderick parker uh and this takes us back to the film would you like to come and ask your question roderick you need to put your blue hand up if you do otherwise I shall ask you a question for you there we are roderick parker welcome him to the stage everybody I love this sense of participation that we get uh interactive nature brother we we've got you on the screen is your your voice can we hear you yes well I think so i'm not needed yeah but um my question may have been slightly off topic because it's really about mass tourism but my limited understanding of easter island is it was once a kind of earthly paradise um it was destroyed by a combination of overpopulation of the rats and chopping down the trees so they know they couldn't any longer build their canoes to go and get the fish that they that they depended on um and having been more or less destroyed those who are left are now they're able to cope with mass tourism which brings all sorts of troubles in its wake and to my thinking mass tourism it is it's just a huge environmental block that hopefully we shouldn't have to live with so the question really was of how can we cope with mass tourism on a broader scope how do we persuade people that even if they can afford to hop on a plane and go and visit eastern island they maybe shouldn't or if they feel that they can afford to you know if they want to buy cheap tuna in cheap things maybe look for this for the right label

and buy a more expensive team you know there's there's so much education that you need to persuade people to do the right thing by the world we live in so although it was a question about mass tourism maybe both our speakers who might have thoroughly enjoyed can say something about the issues behind it so it's mass tourism it's also if I can bring in the subjects that we

were talking about last week as well eco-tourism there is a case for eco-tourism being treated differently and then of course we've got the coronavirus so nobody's going to get on a plane anytime soon if they've got any sense about catching coronavirus who's going to take this one first julie you look as though you're ready to answer that question okay um at the end of the day every we we're all driven we still live in a very economically driven society where profit profit and cost is really what makes

drives our decisions whether that's in the fishing industry I mean the fishing industry continues to overfish because there's a profit for it and the more they fish the lower the price and the more the consumer will you know eat more fish because it's cheaper the cheaper it becomes the more you end up end up eating so you know given the the structure of our systems and our decision making it really comes to down to increasing those costs making it you know putting a higher tax making it a little bit less accessible and and I know that that touches on this it seems to touch on disparity and it is one of these like um it favors those that can afford it then you're if you put more of a tourism

tax you're then favoring those that can afford and then only those people who can afford it can go and you're limited your minimum the global experience for all but you know I i think that there is a point where you can put a tourist tax that still doesn't eliminate all tourism but it does put a cap on it a bit um and it would vary from state you know location to location and tourism tax in the us wouldn't be as high as one of an island that just simply can't handle the same amount of volume in tourists um so we're talking about intra generational uh just just justness justice and we also need to think about inter-generational justice and and the world that we leave for the next few generations do you want to tackle intergenerational and intra-generational justice chris no political topic I want to talk about fish when he was talking about uh about one issue about the the limits of tumor um choice I mean what how do you persuade people to to buy a can of of tuna which is more expensive than another can because it comes from a sustainable source um you know there comes a point where you simply have to regulate but obviously you want to encourage as far as you can you want to

develop the right environment you want to have fishermen incentivized to to do the right thing um so we push the consumer encouragement to the limits and and then we need government regulation of one kind or another as for tourism I don't want to be hypocritical here um you know i'm a tourist have become so over the last few years and um you know mass tourism

house has opened up opportunities up to people and created vast members of job and prosperity and frankly what would the people of easter island do without those tourists coming in the danger of course is that you know we addressed the issues of ecotourism by imposing charges and offsetting carbon emissions and the like but we put the prices up so how how how do we stop mass tourism becoming elite tourism so anyway I have no I have no answers roderick sorry I was just I was just going to say to roger we have addressed the question you asked roderick but i'm sure we haven't actually given you an answer raise more questions still so uh I don't know I don't know what we're going to do about that I think I think you're going to have to keep asking the questions julie you want to come back one thing you know it it's true what in easter island a big portion of their economy is tourism and one thing that you know as tourism grows in really every location around the world they know what it what's going to happen you're going to see an increase in damage environmental damage waste you know your waste is going up these could have been you know considered by the government beforehand rather than waiting five years ten years later and like oh gosh now we have so much trash it wasn't a surprise 10 years ago for 20 years ago for easter island as it started accumulating and it was it's only been in the last few years that they thought oh gosh maybe we should start finding people to take it away and what should we be able to do with it um so it is just dealing with I think as tourism grows it's also being I think there's a level of common sense to

consider on the government and by the people as they take in the trouble julie with common sense is not actually very common that's the problem that's the problem i've found over years of

politics we talk about common sense but unfortunately as as chris identified with all the litter that's been thrown out of vehicles in the last few days in in the uk now that everybody's sort of dashing about trying to get a breath of fresh air taking the litter and dumping it in places they shouldn't thanks for the question roderick i'm going to ask mary page now she would like to come and ask her question and then I think after mary has asked her question we're probably in the stage where we need a couple of

points of summary from julie and chris we can go a little bit over time because we we do have the opportunity to go a little bit over time but I don't want to keep you uh is mary in

in the flagging up that she is wants to ask a question perhaps she's not able to be there may we may have of them to monitor the face so let's move on to another question we'll have another question

then right uh let me just throw me slightly um nigel nigel quinton we haven't had a question from nigel yet uh so would you like to come and ask your question to chris I think this is directed at but um so we need another question then for julie to offset the question to chris nigel are you able to come and ask your question no he's not like yep okay

let me let me ask josie paul's question while we're while i'm looking at other questions is msc labeled fish actually sustainable chris that's your last question to you there are criticisms of of msc that it

doesn't take account of of certain factors like perhaps discards um but um there is no better uh certification body in the world uh it's you stagno it's standards it gets criticized by by some ngos for for for uh perhaps being being too interested in getting the certification but I don't think that's the case I mean I mean it is difficult the msc people are working with with real fishermen in the real world um and you know they they're charging there's a charge being made to get through that silicon certification process and of course therefore the the fishermen have an interest in getting the certificate because they you know they're paying money whether they give it or or not but you know

i won't say that msc is the absolute gold standard but it is the silver standard and no one else has a silver standard so you know i've got a lot of time for rupert howe and his team in london based uh on msc and I you know I love I love it I love I love them I love this 1996 quotes you know that i've used before that that organization exists so that companies and fishermen can continue to supply the people of this world consumers in supermarkets and the like in a hundred years time and longer and in that case you know we it's not in the absence of government action then we need the fishermen and the industry and ngos and the like to come together and try and ensure that we take practical action and the msc is a good example of practical action good thank you alison crawford is in the audience by the look of it would you like to come and ask your question alison yes she would karen bring allison onto the stage in fact she's got a couple of questions I think they could both they could both be asked because they

are I think related anyway alison i'm sure alison is on her way there she is as yet alison is muted and the mute has gone we haven't yet got you on camera alison we do now alison ask your questions if you would yeah just to say that a couple of years ago on facebook there were a lot of posts circulating about special ships that were being um built to garner the worst of the waste in those areas where it goes round and round and to process them on board and dispose of them suitably but I haven't heard anything about those for several years and I wondered whether you knew anything about them and whether they were viable they are certainly still operating but i'm sure julie knows a lot more about them than I do uh they well what's great about them I will start off with the positive because I feel they did raise a lot of awareness about micro plastic pollution that ends up in the currents and the gyres and they raised awareness about um the amount that is is getting into the

system and I think a lot of people were unaware before became aware because of that project however they and they and because of that they were able to raise a good 30 40 million dollars for to create the the boat the big vacuum of a boat the the problem with that the problems with it is micro plastic pollution despite it being called an island it isn't an island it's more of a my plastic breaks up into back into an oily small particle mess a soupy mess and you can't just vacuum it up the majority of

the big ropes the fishing nets the ropes that are being discarded out at sea are heavy and float to the bottom there is no way to really obtain that the surface pla the surface plastic is even if you could vacuum all of it up what happens is you're vacuuming up good microorganisms items that are good and beneficial in the system and it uh it's a boat that at the end of

the day how much it's a big seed even if you can't see it's a big ocean and to have even a couple of oh you can only vacuum so much um even the top layer if you could do that um and so and you're leaving it's gas powered and you're leaving quite the carbon footprint just to get out there yeah better than nothing though I am i'm not I don't I hate to knock good effort

it's a good intention um so in the end I think it was a lot of money I mean if we've been talking a lot about poor waste management infrastructure 30 40 million dollars could go a long way to fixing the 10

you know major countries contributing to the plastic waste giving 10 million dollars to the philippines 10 million dollars to indonesia malaysia to have bet improve their waste management how they can

collect it and do something with it would be far more it had far greater impact on reducing plastic pollution I think okay yeah okay I know I think the guy's named boyden slat is

isn't he who's doing a lot of this work in trying to get sort of horseshoe shaped uh floating things that collect and collate this and then bring it back to land um so the operation is still going on um

i I don't know how successful it's all going to be but it's still being operated on chris sorry julie well i'll say one quick thing the one what has come out of it research-wise out of instead of having the boats that go and vacuum it up collect it with these u-shaped out of the ocean that same technology is now being sold to different cities to put at the base of waterways that are water that run off into the ocean la los angeles was one of the first cities to buy one of these to put it at one of the where the runoff water ends up draining into the ocean so it will collect and be able to that way because currently a lot of these wastewater sites um are manually you have to manually take out the trash there might be some type of capture of the net and then but you have to manually kind of draw it back in whereas his technology allows it to be sucked up

and pulled out and so I mean that does serve potentially as to the base of the ten rivers that are dumping into the oceans that you can maybe put them at the base of those rivers I know I know they refer to it as turning off the town in instead of filling the bath with waste they turn off the tap and then at least you can take some of the water out chris do you want to pick up on that as to whether europe has a role in just a very small very small one I mean the european union fisheries budget uh allows money to be used for clearing up waste now it has to be matched by national governments if they wish to do so um so some countries do that spain for example

um uses european money and its own money um dedicated money to uh pay fishermen to clear up waste in order to bring waste back into port but as julie said you know this is um the priority should be must be to try and stop the waste getting into the sea in the first place because otherwise it's it's it's a crazy crazy use of money in in in the

in the big picture just one thought though you know what influence could britain have um we've had all this fuss about the international development ministry being wound up in the last few days I mean has anyone ever heard of of the uk speaking to some of the governments who possess the rivers which are the main generators of waste saying you know can we have a partnership deal in which we will make a small contribution towards helping you clear up your waste i've never heard of a project like that being initiated by the uk it doesn't seem to be on their their radar no um I i happened I happened to turn the television on this morning while I was having a cup of coffee and I didn't realize but I went straight into a speech by boris johnson and he was actually using the phrase buildback better which um surprised me a little bit because he was getting very enthusiastic about environmental themes and and building back better the problem is i'm not sure I believed what he was saying anyway um thank you for that question we'll take one more question if we may and then we'll go to a summary so um [Music] there there's a question there from this might be a yes or no answer so I rather than get brian upon on stage can I send a freedom of information request to our council to find out whether the plastic we put into recycling bins

ends up on the beach in turkey or is it just lazily incinerated chris who do you know the answer to that question I think the answer is yes yes there's a very it's a very very good point um okay so I saw the publicity about the the the plastic waste ending up in turkey but um i'm surprised that more liberal democrat campaigners don't follow their own local authorities waste I mean i'm in oldham which is also the uh looks after greater manchester's waste policies it's uh it's the lead authority for that um i've been to shoten the big paper mill there you know i've seen the paper being collected I i've talked to the managers there you know it's a huge transformation I think from 1970s when we used to you know charity collections of paper they've got the biggest warehouse i've ever seen in my life there bigger than airbus wing manufacturing plants and I asked them they say you know seven tenths of all our newsprint seven tenths nearly eight tenths of our new script comes from recycled paper with only less than a quarter coming from from raw timber that's a huge transformation we are utterly dependent upon that waste paper coming in they argued

and you know this place is only ever empty at on new year's day after you had a week of perhaps no collections coming in we need that paper and yet you look at plastics and i'm not a torso I mean where does that plastics go I mean where do the bottles go you hear bottles hardly being remade into glass here but being shipped to south america uh broken up and and shipped um other and until china introduced its ban of course there was there was basically empty empty container vessels carrying our waste back to china I think we should if campaigners could uh could have some fun I think following their local authorities waste and just finding out what's happening to it and trying to ensure that we are dealing with it as effectively as possible and it isn't all just green bush if somebody's making notes out there in the chat uh that sounds like a note to ourselves that we ought to be campaigning more effectively um one final point from anthony reid nx this is information to our panelists and h5 to the mar paul convention imposes a ban on disposal of waste at sea now you see I didn't know that um and clearly there are rules and regulations but actually putting these rules and regulations in place is going to be difficult can we have a summary quick summary from our speakers where towards closing time so starting then with chris a quick summary from you and then handing over to julie chris well I think it's about brexit I suppose because we're liberal democrats campaigning in in the uk um we need to be campaigning for our government to to be progressive when it comes to putting in place the policies of sustainability for our oceans it needs to be taking an active role in the regional fisheries management organizations where uh uk vessels are operating uh it needs to be calling for the rules of these organizations to change so we move away from a consensus framework to to one in which majority decisions can be taken so so progress can be can be made and it needs not to be frightened as i'm afraid this government seems to be of being part of team europe it could also be part of team europe team usa because I may say the usa has had some very good fisheries policies um over the last couple decades too um you know um don't just look don't I mean I hope the uk just doesn't simply try to play it play the you know we're the exception to the rule we don't need to work with others if we want to bring about change and promote sustainability we do very much need to work with others and not everyone is progressive okay working with others is the message from chris julie what what's the final message you would like to leave us with I think there's huge importance I mean we all recognize that there is just one global community but it is really recognizing that we're all part of these local communities where we do have more of an influence you know talking about at the um how waste is managed it's different in everybody's town

every town around the world it is different and changing those working with the local waste how was your waste managed and working with to promote um incentives both on consumption and production and with the year local legislation that those local communities and changes ultimately domino effect into global change and it can be overwhelming but it is I am optimistic still um with slight encouragement here overwhelmed but we're optimistic I that's a nice note to live on thank you very much indeed um and if if the audience can use the chat to put their clap clap applause applause and I will relate that back well I think the panelists can see that so uh yes there we go applause applause and i'll i'll do an actual clap that you can hear so thanks very much for joining us from the west coast of the united states I think i've got you in the right place haven't I julie and thank you for joining us chris from the north west of england I suspect are you yeah oh he's been pumped back let me tell you well let me perhaps leave it to karen to tell you what's happening next thank you very much keith thank you very much um there is in the chat the link to the meeting hall hopefully there'll be about 20 minutes for you to pop into the meeting hall to see if there's any other people there and you are more than welcome to do that thank you very much for joining this session and bearing with us for that extra half an hour so we could get that filming for you so the meeting hall is going to be open the conference hall will remain open because we are continuing our session at seven o'clock so uh until seven o'clock thank you very much for joining us here for managing the oceans and we will see you at seven o'clock for follow the money do we need a carbon tax you